The City Wants to Pass its own Gun Laws

[Jolly Rancher]

Originally Posted by macdaddy

I am a strong supporter of civil liberties, and personal protection is your right. the law is out there to let those who wish and pass the requirements to carry their guns. However it is no different than sayin. Not shirt no shoes no service. The businesses choice.

Mac - I don't disagree with you and I am not using your post to make a point to you, but something you said in the post was interesting and I am begging you to allow me to use it. I don't know how you feel about this, but I am using your words anyway, because this should also apply to the smoking issue (Different thread). My business, my rules. If I want smokers in my establishment, then it should be MY choice, not the government's. Same as with CCH, No Shirts, No Shoes, etc.

Thanks for allowing me to use your words to speak my mind. I will try not to do that too often.

[Highwayman]

Originally Posted by macdaddy

..Also to anyone that has taken offense to my posts. please accept my most sincerest appologies. I will try and watch my forum posting etiquette better in the future.

I didn’t take offense to any of your posts.

But I would like to add something else more along the line of personal opinion. I don’t like the idea of leaving a gun in the car when I go in someplace. Cars get broken into. I know because it’s happened to me. I’ve seen coworker’s cars get broken into while parked in a fenced lot with guards and cameras. If I was carrying and had several places to go and one place that I couldn’t carry into I’d either not go there or I’d need to leave my gun home for the whole day. There is at least one state (can’t remember which one) where it’s illegal for a permit holder to leave the gun in the car. So in effect, that one business owner just voided my state license that I jumped through hoops and spent a coupe of hundred dollars to get. Hence, I will take my business elsewhere.

[Bubba]

Originally Posted by Tee

I think we'd all benefit from getting past the symantecs.
Who cares who posts in all caps?!! Let's stop the name calling, too. These are vegan-games and frankly it is getting tiresome when several pages of an issue are devoted to childish "yes you did, no you didn't" squabble.

We should try to stick to the issue. I have voiced my stance and I respect those opinions that do not coincide with mine. At the same time, we all are given the same right to vote with our wallet, and the same right to try and change other's point of view, as long as we do it civally.

Originally Posted by macdaddy

....(snip)..Your ass ump tions....(snip).....
So lets not be a "Penis" about it bubba......(snip)

Excuse me if I felt the need to defend myself when somebody calls me an ass and a penis.

I will gladly stop posting and visiting this forum if it is semantics to defend your name and honor.

[Highwayman]

Here’s a good example of someone that’s misinformed. See my comments in red inserted into the middle.

Posted on Fri, Feb. 16, 2007

Gun owners press Hutchinson stores to allow concealed weapons

Associated Press

HUTCHINSON, Kan. - When Kansas began allowing qualified citizens to carry concealed handguns, A.J. Conard posted a sign at her business prohibiting them. When two members of a gun club objected to the sign, she took it down.

A small victory - Conard says she had mistakenly thought the sign was required by law - but one that a handful of Hutchinson area gun owners hope to duplicate at other stores through boycotts.

Conard didn't want to lose potential customers. Her company, Apollo Engraving, happens to sell the signs, but Conard says they don't reflect her own sentiments about concealed guns.

"I do quite a bit of work for these gun people," she said. "That's money in my pocket. I'm not that afraid of people coming in with guns. I just turn myself and my employees over to the big man upstairs."

The 2006 concealed-carry statute specifically bans concealed guns in such places as courthouses, schools and churches, but it also lets businesses prohibit them by posting signs.

A recent count on a stretch of Hutchinson's Main Street found the signs in just 14 of more than 140 storefronts, The Hutchinson News reported. Several of those with signs were financial or medical offices.

Signs prohibiting concealed guns also are posted at entrances to the Hutchinson Mall. Mall manager Dan Flores said the decision was made by the corporate owner and there was no discussion among the merchants. But Flores supports the decision.

"Just look at what happened at the Trolley Center," he said, referring to a shooting this week at a Utah mall, where a teen killed five people.

This guy is really screwed up. The shooter at the Utah mall did not have a carry permit and I really can’t believe that a cardboard sign would have changed his mind. The customer with the carry permit was credited with bringing the shooting spree to an early halt saving an unknown number of lives. Simply put, in this case that sign in the door would have gotten more folks killed that day and this guy wants to use the Utah example to support corporate banning guns from the mall he manages. Someone didn’t read and comprehend much past the headlines.

Hutchinson resident Don O'Neal - among the 132 Reno County residents who has applied for a permit - said he would stop buying tools at Sears, which has a store at the mall. And Tom McGuire said he'll only go to the mall now to visit the driver's license examiner's office.

"What that sign is telling the majority of us, myself in particular, is that organization is against the Constitution of the United States, which gives us the right to bear arms," O'Neal said.

Advocates of concealed carry also contend that criminals are likely to be attracted by the 8-by-8-inch, red-and-black signs barring hidden weapons.

"To get the permits, people must go through an extensive background check that goes back through their childhood," Tom Conway said. "You have to have a squeaky clean record. These are honest, law-abiding citizens.

"If you want to put up a sign that says 'no crooks or sleazebags or dishonest people,' it's going to be ignored," he added. "But crooks will see this sign and think, 'Great, I don't have to be concerned about law-abiding citizens.'"

At Egbert Liquor, manager Roy Freeman said an employee posted a sign in the store, and Freeman took it down.

"If they have a license to carry it, it doesn't bother me," Freeman said. "The guy coming to rob you isn't going to have a license. We're pretty much familiar with 90 percent of the clientele that comes through our door. That other 10 percent I don't know, if they're coming to rob us, I hope one of those carrying a concealed weapon will save our lives."

At Sunset Pawn and Jewelry, owner Ralph Thrash said he's taken grief from a number of customers, but he's keeping the signs up.

"Sometimes when I come down to the store at night I carry a weapon, but it's on my hip," Thrash said. "It's not concealed. I don't plan to get a concealed license.

"It's their right to carry," Thrash said. "And it's our right to say no."

AP Wire | 02/16/2007 | Gun owners press Hutchinson stores to allow concealed weapons

[macdaddy]

Jolly,

Point noted and accepted.

Highway,

No I don't believe that the business owners have voided your permit. Its a choice everyone makes. I think the bigger question here is.... when do the rights and libertys of one person cross over and infringe on the rights and liberties of another? Who has the the right to say you can't carry your weapon into a store if you feel your in danger? Who has the right to tell business owners they can't operate their businesses in the manner they feel the safest?

And did the founding fathers invision the constitution in a different manner than we are interpreting it today?


I don't know where the answer to those questions are. I like everyone else only has their opnion.

As far as the car break in goes your right but they do make lockboxes you can use for this purpose.

In Car Gun Safe
Auto Vault, Gun Safe, Laptop Safe, Hand Gun Safe, Gun Vault, Portable Safe, Laptop Briefcase, Safe Manufacturer,Security Briefcase

[Value Pack]

One has to go with what works.

For example, the recent shooting at the Utah shopping mall, the mall was posted off-limits to concealed weapons. The bad guy saw those signs and promptly left the premises....

What's that? You say the nut case ignored the no gun signs, and was stopped only by a man with a concealed gun.

Damn, that's not how it's supposed to work!

[Highwayman]

Originally Posted by macdaddy

Jolly,

Point noted and accepted.

Highway,

No I don't believe that the business owners have voided your permit. Its a choice everyone makes. I think the bigger question here is.... when do the rights and libertys of one person cross over and infringe on the rights and liberties of another? Who has the the right to say you can't carry your weapon into a store if you feel your in danger? Who has the right to tell business owners they can't operate their businesses in the manner they feel the safest?

And did the founding fathers invision the constitution in a different manner than we are interpreting it today?


I don't know where the answer to those questions are. I like everyone else only has their opnion.

As far as the car break in goes your right but they do make lockboxes you can use for this purpose.

In Car Gun Safe
Auto Vault, Gun Safe, Laptop Safe, Hand Gun Safe, Gun Vault, Portable Safe, Laptop Briefcase, Safe Manufacturer,Security Briefcase

Macdaddy,

That Auto Vault in the second link is really slick. When I’m on the road I like to carry plenty of cash but not keep all of it in my wallet. That vault would be great for extra cash.

But not for a gun.

Two reasons why. First someone with a CC permit has one for a reason. This is covered by my spare tire theory. You carry a spare in the trunk for years and never need it. One day you have some things to haul so you leave the spare in the garage for some extra room and bingo! The first flat in years and you ain’t got the spare. OK, apply that to your carry gun. You stop at someplace that’s posted so you lock the gun in the vault and then lock the car. If you suddenly need it 10 feet from the car it just as well be 10 miles.

A case that comes to mind happened in Colorado a couple years ago. There was an altercation in a parking lot over a car door dinging another car. (I don’t know who dinged who.) The guy with a CC was facing another couple and the other man picked up a pipe and smacked the guy with the CC up side the head. With both parties advancing on him he pulled his gun and killed the man with the pipe and wounded that man’s wife. It was ruled justifiable self defense because he had already been hit in the head with the pipe and that type of injury is potentially fatal. In front of a posted store he would likely have been beat to death within 10 feet of his weapon that was locked in the car.

Second reason is in the process of moving the weapon from the holster to the vault the weapon might be seen by a passer by. This defeats the whole purpose of CC. I’ve seen several opinion writers asking why you need a hidden gun when you could just carry openly. It’s because there’s always someone somewhere that going to overreact when they see a weapon.

A couple of years ago there was a man in Nebraska that carried openly all the time. It was legal and nothing happened because of it. One day he went into a Wal*Mart (still legally) and of course someone called the police. The man was detained and hassled for hours despite the fact he had broken no laws. Out of sight, no problem. In plain view, trouble. Compare that to another Wal*Mart somewhere else where a lady with a CC used her weapon to stop some crazy from cutting up a store employee with a blade. Without firing a shot.

Yes macdaddy that Auto Vault looks like a fine place to keep extra cash and even other things like credit cards or other valuables.

But not my gun.

ΜOΛΩΝ ΛΑΒΕ

[Mike B.]

I'm Quoting Value Pack....."I received some reports on the meeting of February 5, 2007 of the Dodge City Commission. Terry Lee was of the opinion “Let’s not fix this unless it is broken.” Jim Lembright and Rick Sowers were just plain anti-gun, period. Jim Sherer just wanted to know how many voters could be made upset with his vote. (Jim: private message: a lot more then 110 voters. ) Kent Smoll was open minded.

I can hear Jim Lembright and/or Rick Sowers already.

“Yes, I hear all the data. Yes, I know what the research is saying, but you know what, this makes me feel safer”

The problem with Dodge City and Ford County is that our elected officals make a lot of decisions on what makes them feel safer, whether it does make them safer or not. The 3 minute decision I like to call this. What they should be doing is basing their decisions on what’s right and what we all know will make our city/county safer based on facts, not feelings.

The facts do not support additional laws or regulations beyond the state’s requirements. All you will hear our elected officals say is “ I support this or I feel this way.” I suppose that is why Judges are Judges (decide on the established facts and law ) and elected commissioners decide on their feelings. The good news is that in this card game a judge trumps a City Commission.

Our City Commission has a "Study session" on this this Monday night. Will they look at facts and research or will this be a feeling session? God help us all."

VP....I think I'm starting to like you!

[lurker]

I've never doubted where the HutchNews' editor stands on his/her stage... on 'Stage Left'.

Unconcealed boycott

Private business more in 'right' than gun extremists

Gun enthusiasts do themselves more harm than good when they take extremist positions.

Like when they argue that the Founding Fathers intended the Second Amendment to protect people who want to own automatic weapons.

Or when they boycott businesses that don't feel comfortable allowing people to carry concealed weapons into their workplaces. And then claim violation of their constitutional rights for that, too.

Please.

Give them credit for being occasionally effective. We do have a concealed carry law in Kansas now, after all. But thoughtful people don't buy the rhetoric of Charlton Heston and his large following.

Business owners who want to post bans on concealed carry on their property shouldn't either.

As if it isn't enough that concealed carry was made the law of the land, the gun lobby now thinks private business can be bullied, too. It is happening right here in Hutchinson, where some are boycotting businesses that post signs prohibiting concealed carry on the premises. At least two businesses even were persuaded to take down the signs.

Actually, one of the arguments for not posting has some merit. A business owner almost could be persuaded that posting the sign won't keep out criminals bearing arms while it does stop the responsible permit-holders who might otherwise foil a crime.

But then the pro-gun folks shoot themselves in the proverbial foot when they go on to suggest that crooks might actually stake out a business and watch for customers who return to their cars to stow their guns.

Or, worse, when they say that the no-concealed carry sign tells them "that organization is against the Constitution of the United States, which gives us the right to bear arms."

Yes, the Constitution does give that right. But it also gives other individuals and property owners rights of their own. And nobody has the right to dictate how another person should feel about guns. Every individual - and business owner - has the right to feel uncomfortable about guns in his home or place of business.

The Second Amendment does not supersede a private business owner's right to prohibit guns.

Any consumer can choose where he wants to do business, for whatever goofy reasons on which he wants to base that choice.

But spewing such utter nonsense about the Constitution, well maybe we should post signs prohibiting that, too. It is probably more dangerous than the guns.

02/18/2007; 02:39:30 AM

Now they condone prohibiting references to the Constitution?

[Captain Kemical]

Originally Posted by Highwayman

At Sunset Pawn and Jewelry, owner Ralph Thrash said he's taken grief from a number of customers, but he's keeping the signs up.

"Sometimes when I come down to the store at night I carry a weapon, but it's on my hip," Thrash said. "It's not concealed. I don't plan to get a concealed license.

"It's their right to carry," Thrash said. "And it's our right to say no."

AP Wire | 02/16/2007 | Gun owners press Hutchinson stores to allow concealed weapons

Explain to me how the pawn shop owner isn't breaking the law when he is carrying a gun into his business when he has a sign up that says no guns.