Clueless; Lets talk Casino again.

[Bubba]

Originally Posted by lurker

It's important to comprehend that the Packers are directly injecting the equivalent of the projected gaming's yearly worker cash-flow into the DC economy every month.

...and their workers are taking that injected money and sending it out of the country.

[Army_of_One]

but what's the cost to the community?

[lurker]

Originally Posted by Bubba

...and their workers are taking that injected money and sending it out of the country.

Something like 20% of the scrapings from the gaming tables will immediately leave Dodge City and go to Topeka.

Neither is "Good for Dodge' nor "Good for You"

[Mike B.]

Originally Posted by Army_of_One

I have a question. Since you care so much about the citizens and the community (which is a good thing and I thank you for that) did you support the packing plants when they were being debated? What is your stand on them now? Would you vote for removing them? Do you think they are destroying our community?

Army,

When that debate was going on I did not live in the area.

My stand now? (IMO) Alot of people are upset and are anti packing house. Would those people be as upset if the packing houses employeed white people who were just like us. Probably not! Because people like us, (in most cases) are legal, we do not steal S.S. numbers, do not steal others identities and do not steal from the I.R.S. People are pissed off because the American citizens are the victims. People are pissed off because dispite what the packers say about thier hiring practices they continue to hire illegals! People are pissed off because the officials we elect to represent us, don't!

Then we have the group who are upset not only because of what I've mention above, but also because the packers are raping our natural resources and pumping polutants back in our faces!


Would I vote to remove them? Let me ask you this. Do you want to see this town drop to about 5,000 in population? If the packers were to be gone tomorrow our city would go bankrupt. Property values would drop and the revenues would dry up. Every winter when the packers cut their hours to 36 a week, the repercussions are felt in the business district. To answer your question: No

Are they destroying our community? Not sure what you mean by "destroying" If you mean ruining, no.

Army, That's just my opinion.

[Mike B.]

Originally Posted by Bubba

How is it looking at both sides of the coin when you get most of your information about the "other side" from the side that is against it in the first place. They are misinforming you about the "other side."





What other communities are you referring to?

Las Vegas? They have seen massive growth of their city. The state that Las Vegas is in has no state income tax. That is because that the tax revenue that the visitors that come to gamble pay enough to them that high taxes are not needed.

Cripple Creek? Gambling has turned that town around from a virtual ghost town to a very thriving community! Revitalized downtown area, new schools, street repairs, new storm drains and sewers, etc. All paid for by gambling revenue and not taxes by the citizens.

Atlantic City? It has revitalized the area and rebuilt the boardwalks, etc. that was getting run down ever since the end of WW II and the gaining popularity of the automobile and the highways. They lead the nation in the rising value of their homes (25.9%).

Yup, those are some pretty nasty things to happen. If we could only be so unlucky to have the same nasty things happen in Dodge City, I don't know what we would do! (Heavy sarcasm is intentional.)

Bubba,

I guess I could also say you are misinformed. My point is this: Both sides put up stats that benefit their arguments. Both sides are educated. I agree and disagree with statement from both sides. I know, as I stated earlier, that some good things will happen in Ford county because of a casino.

Now about those communities you have mentioned. Like I said both sides can put up stats:

Las Vagas: But what about the glitz and glamour of Nevada? If one scratches beneath the veneer of its gambling-induced prosperity, it becomes apparent that a culture sown on greed and the exploitation of human weakness invariably reaps the social whirlwind. Consider these documented facts: When compared with the other 49 states, Nevada ranks first in the nation in suicide, first in divorce, first in high school dropouts, first in homicide against women, at the top in gambling addictions, third in bankruptcies, third in abortion, fourth in rape, fourth in out-of wedlock births, fourth in alcohol-related deaths, fifth in crime, and sixth in the number of prisoners locked up. It ranks in the top one-third of the nation in child abuse, and dead-last in voter participation. One-tenth of all Southern Nevadans are alcoholics. And as for the moral climate, the Yellow Pages in Las Vegas lists 136 pages of advertisements for prostitution by its various names. No wonder they call it "Sin City." George magazine named Las Vegas "One of the 10 Most Corrupt Cities in America." Former deputy attorney general Chuck Gardner said, "I don’t know if there has ever been a situation with so much power concentrated in one industry. It is government gone berserk. If the poster child for gambling can't do any better than this, why would we want to follow in thier foot steps?

Cripple Creek: I recieved an E-mail just the other day from a man that lives there. Crime is on the rise. Drugs are now found in their Jr and Sr. High schools that were not there before the casinos came. Property tax has risen, not gone down as promised by the gambling industry. P.D. has gone from 1 part time officer to 24. Many people have been "done in" by gambling.

Atlantic city: Property values have indeed risen since the introduction of gambling. More taxes can be collected from a higher apprasial. This adds money to the city coffers to cover the cost of social and economic deterioration.

My point is that both sides, PRO and Anti gambling, have thier stats. I have rocognized the good that may come from gambling. Why don't you recognize the costs associated with gambling also?

[Mike B.]

Ok Bubba,

I'm done! We could go round and round forever. We will not change each others mind. Besides I'm getting tired of this debate. I'll let you have the final word.

Best wishes to you! I have no resentments or hard feeling towards you at all. You have put up a good argument. I respect you for speaking your opinion.

Over and Out!

[Made in the USA]

Originally Posted by Mike B.

Would I vote to remove them? Let me ask you this. Do you want to see this town drop to about 5,000 in population? If the packers were to be gone tomorrow our city would go bankrupt. Property values would drop and the revenues would dry up.

We were doing just great before the packers came here! Life was good, and I was very happy and proud to live and raise a family in the Dodge City area.

[Army_of_One]

Originally Posted by Mike B.

Are they destroying our community? Not sure what you mean by "destroying" If you mean ruining, no.

Army, That's just my opinion.

So you would say that Dodge City is a better place NOW than it was before the packing plants came? The crime is lower? The schools are better? The drinking water and such is better? Dodge City is a safer place to live? I understand the packing houses bring more cash flow to Dodge but at what cost? See you want to rally against the casino and the negatives it may bring but on the other hand support the packing plants that probably bring with it more negatives than a casino would. How has the meat packing industry NOT hurt Dodge with the exception of pumping in some cash to the economy....

[Bubba]

Originally Posted by Mike B.

Bubba,

I guess I could also say you are misinformed. My point is this: Both sides put up stats that benefit their arguments. Both sides are educated. I agree and disagree with statement from both sides. I know, as I stated earlier, that some good things will happen in Ford county because of a casino.

Now about those communities you have mentioned. Like I said both sides can put up stats:

Las Vagas: But what about the glitz and glamour of Nevada? If one scratches beneath the veneer of its gambling-induced prosperity, it becomes apparent that a culture sown on greed and the exploitation of human weakness invariably reaps the social whirlwind. Consider these documented facts: When compared with the other 49 states, Nevada ranks first in the nation in suicide, first in divorce, first in high school dropouts, first in homicide against women, at the top in gambling addictions, third in bankruptcies, third in abortion, fourth in rape, fourth in out-of wedlock births, fourth in alcohol-related deaths, fifth in crime, and sixth in the number of prisoners locked up. It ranks in the top one-third of the nation in child abuse, and dead-last in voter participation. One-tenth of all Southern Nevadans are alcoholics. And as for the moral climate, the Yellow Pages in Las Vegas lists 136 pages of advertisements for prostitution by its various names. No wonder they call it "Sin City." George magazine named Las Vegas "One of the 10 Most Corrupt Cities in America." Former deputy attorney general Chuck Gardner said, "I don’t know if there has ever been a situation with so much power concentrated in one industry. It is government gone berserk. If the poster child for gambling can't do any better than this, why would we want to follow in thier foot steps?

Cripple Creek: I recieved an E-mail just the other day from a man that lives there. Crime is on the rise. Drugs are now found in their Jr and Sr. High schools that were not there before the casinos came. Property tax has risen, not gone down as promised by the gambling industry. P.D. has gone from 1 part time officer to 24. Many people have been "done in" by gambling.

Atlantic city: Property values have indeed risen since the introduction of gambling. More taxes can be collected from a higher apprasial. This adds money to the city coffers to cover the cost of social and economic deterioration.

My point is that both sides, PRO and Anti gambling, have thier stats. I have rocognized the good that may come from gambling. Why don't you recognize the costs associated with gambling also?

But the difference is, I don't get my facts from one side or the other. I take the time and look them up for myself. Now, on to the subject of your "facts."


Las Vegas: You say that Las Vegas has the highest suicide rate in the nation. That may have been at one point in time. The fact is that Alaska has the highest suicide rate in the nation. (source- Suicide Reference Library ) You also say that Nevada has the highest divorce rate. That may have been the case in 1994! But if you look at Jan. 2000 figures (newest I could find), you see that Nevada had 1037 divorces and many other states had more. Like North Carolina with 3028 or Tennessee with 2760 or Alabama with 1435 or Kentucky with 1688 or Florida with 6265. (source- http://www.cdc.gov/nchs/data/nvsr/nv...0-01-01-03.pdf ) You also say that Nevada has the highest high school dropout rate. I'm sure that was also probably the case at one time. But for the 2001-2002 school year (newest I could find), Nevada had a 6.4% dropout rate and several states were higher. Like Arizona with a 10.5% rate, or Alaska with an 8.1% rate, or Louisiana with a 7% rate. (source- http://nces.ed.gov/pubs2007/2007024.pdf page 22). You see where I'm going with this?!?!

Cripple Creek: You say you got an email from somebody that lives there. That there is more drugs in the Jr. & Sr. High Schools than there was before gambling. That property tax has risen and not gone down. That the Police Dept. has gone from 1 to 24 officers.

I say that you or the person that sent you the email must have a future in politics because those are true facts! I'm not going to dispute those facts at all.
However, I will paint the whole picture to go with those facts. There are more drugs in the schools (which are brand new & paid for by gambling money) because before gambling (in 1980) Cripple Creek had a population of 680, and less than 100 students. After gambling (2000 census figure) Cripple Creek had a population of 1,115 with 494 households and many more students to fill those brand new schools. So, using common sense, you can make the correlation of more students=more drugs. Now, the property tax issue. The property tax has risen because the property values have risen, not necessarily because the tax rate has gone up. Now, the Police Departments increase in officers. Again, the population in 1980 was 680, the population in 2000 was 1,115. That is just the full-time residents. Many casino workers live in nearby cities and come to Cripple Creek to work. Some from even Colorado Springs, 44 miles away. Also there are scores of visitors that come to Cripple Creek. Again, common sense shows that the Police Department needed to grow and that isn't necessarily a bad thing. (Source- I too know people that have ties to Cripple Creek, ie - relation that lives there.)

[Clueless]

That's your perception of the vote on Wright Park and your overall view of the Special Events Center. The point of his testimony is pretty clear - we are a community who is working together to be more successful in attracting tourism and entertainment. I understand that you disagree with that mission, but many others do not.

Your are truly unbelievable. Is it possible that the overall project became larger and therefore more jobs will be created? From Boot Hill Gaming's recent comments - several ancilliary facilities (some required by SB-66, by the way) such as a 100-room hotel and a 16,000 sq ft. conference center, etc. have been added. Unfortunately, this significantly increased new jobs and payrolls. BUT, you see this as being "untruthful". Apparently, better is worse.

It's been said in this forum several times that sales tax and other forms of tax incentive financing, including abatements, CANNOT BE USED. The statute says so. Why do you continue to raise the same question when you know the answer? Apparently, just to inflame others who may not know the truth! And, you know well that the Judge made no statement about a Casino - the opportunity didn't even exist at the time of his ruling. And, the SEC and the Casino are two completely separate projects. They would work well together, but one is a public project and one is a private project. Their individual space requirements will dictate whether they can be near each another.

Again, you take Thorpe's testimony and find darkness. He was referring to everyone in the tourism and hospitality sectors in Dodge City - who would like to increase their revenues. Apparently, you are criticizing Boot Hill for acceptance of WND funds to support their operation.

Are you listening to you own words? So, everyone involved in the City, County, Eco/Devo, CFAB, Boot Hill Museum etc. are "the same people that have taken Dodge City down". I think you have included yourself - and rightly so.

Rudyard Kipling said that 'the elephant huffed and puffed and gave birth to an ant'. Somehow, that quote fits your rhetoric and inability to listen or accept others' points of view.