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Selling Community College Land Why?

Discussion in 'USD 443 and DCCC' started by Daredevil, Nov 8, 2016.

  1. Daredevil

    Daredevil Well-Known Member

    The sale of community college land and mismanagement of the nursing program is disturbing me. In another thread we are talking about the nursing program, the sale of the land needs a whole new thread. This is stupidity and it makes no sense. After 30 years in the Dodge City area, I can say with confidence that this will be horribly destructive to the future legacy of DCCC.

    First the land being talked about starts at the child care center and goes to the stoplight then west down the highway. From asking around it sounds like between 35 to 45 acres. The amount of money someone told me is going to be around 5 million.

    What does this mean?

    It hems the college in and allows for no future expansion. The Cosmotology and child care building will be lost, the football practice field will be lost and I do not know if they can move it, and the storage building next to it will be lost. That field with the fence and other additions cost 1 million, the building had to be close to that in cost, and I am sure the replacement cost of the cosmetology building would probably be a million (I am not sure). The net sale of the land would then be between 1 and 2 million dollars. I would suppose that the sprinkling system would have to be modified also. Why would you make that deal. That vastly undervalues that land, and the cost of the lost of facilities makes the price worse. Who is making these moronic decisions?

    If commercial property goes in what will go in there? Will they stay? If they do not, what kind of ghost town will surround the college? If they do, the college is obscured and cannot grow.

    I have been told it is suppose to be a Sutherlands and a Dillons Marketplace. Suggestions have also been made that maybe restaurants could be placed in the development. On the highway, that would really require a frontage road or permission to have access ways from KDOT (has that been done)? If there is a frontage road that has an inlet on 14th street that is really going to mess up traffic on that corner. That would also require a much bigger swath of land than I imagined and be getting pretty near the area of the dome.

    Lastly, I know that the idea of restaurants, convenience stores, or a Dillons Marketplace is not feasible for one simple reason that apparently the College and Joann Knight are overlooking (I will let readers ponder what the glitch is). That makes this concept a charade, and makes me wonder what is really going on unless groups are trying to damage and destroy the college.
    Sunnyday likes this.
  2. Coffeedeux

    Coffeedeux Well-Known Member

    What decisions?
  3. Made in the USA

    Made in the USA Gold Member

    I heard the lumber yard/big box store was going out East on the ByPass. The reason they are extending the water and sewer lines out that way at the present time.

    I would think selling the college land that you mention, would be a very big mistake. But who listens to common sense???
    Gypsy, FENDER and Sunnyday like this.
  4. Daredevil

    Daredevil Well-Known Member

    The decisions referred to are the idea that selling the colleges ability to grow and thrive by hemming it in to a very tight box. That decision is also to sell land with buildings on it at an extremely low price. This is being done by Harold Nolte and was brought to him by Joann Knight (one of the same people with the FHSU plan). It seems the only plan she has is to use the college like an entity that has gone through a hostile takeover and to sell off or give its parts away for some pie in the sky dream that can not and will not be feasible. the benefits gained are minimal compared to what would be lost.

    All of this is being done in the shadows like the FHSU plan was. The College Board and the President should at least have the courage to make their decisions in the light of day. They should seek community input because as Made in the USA has pointed out he like many others think this would be a mistake. The question is why would Harold Nolte do this at the expense of the Community College and why would 5 of the board members allow it. Add it to his other decisions that have endangered the nursing program and you begin to wonder if he is not trying to shut the school down so someone like an FHSU could come into Dodge and takeover the mess.

    On another note, the DC Globe discusses the City Commission's reaction to questions about the deal with college land. The city even had the gall to pretend that Joann Knight has told them nothing about this. That is interesting because they would have to know so they could start working on tax exemptions. Then again they have not officially met, but have had meetings with a few commissioners at a time to circumvent open meeting laws just like the college board. They may have even used an excuse to go into executive session to hide this information like the college board did.
    Sunnyday likes this.
  5. DCSniper

    DCSniper Well-Known Member

    This was in the Globe today:

    City, DCCC to talk retail

    Posted Nov 22, 2016 at 1:01 AM

    By Vincent Marshall/@vince_dcglobe

    City manager Cherise Tieben and Dodge City/Ford County Development corporation executive director Joann Knight spoke with the Daily Globe on Monday about retail development.

    Tieben will be presenting possible retail land options to the Dodge City Community College Board of Trustees in a work session today and what options are available along 14th Avenue.

    "Pad sites near Hobby Lobby became available and developers have shown strong interest in retail box stores at those sites," Tieben said.

    "That gave us the opportunity to open those pad sites once they became available," Knight said. "And then we also knew Farm Credit wasn't going to keep the rest of that land (along 14th Avenue) so we know they have an interest in selling it and that allowed us and the developer to look and say there may be enough property here to get more pad sites opened up to do the larger development we need to do and keep from establishing another retail district in town and confusing people even more.

    "I have had a restaurant I've been working with for over a year and is torn on where he wants to go.

    "So it has been confusing developers on where they want to go whether it's near retail on 14th or downtown or near the mall.

    "So when those pad sites opened up that really gave us more thought of looking at 14th Avenue because it has a big box, it has the traffic counts, it has the stop lights, its has those things retailers are really wanting we just didn't have the land available at the time."

    Dial Corporation is the developer that has been working with city officials on putting together the retail possibilities and has been for at least 3 years according to Tieben and Knight.

    "DP went out and talked to some of those companies and they now have significantly more interest in coming to Dodge City if they can get to that site," Knight said.

    Tieben added, "And we learned that it doesn't matter what we think, the retailers are going to tell you where they want to go."

    From there Dial then talked to the retailers interested about whether or not there is enough land.

    "After the land that is on the market is known," Tieben said. "They then ask if the land near the sites would be interested in selling."

    That land would be the southern corner of DCCC.

    "Now that that part is out in the public," Tieben said. "We are at a real disadvantage in negotiations so that is why we have that opportunity to do it outside of the public purview.

    "But Joann set up Dial to go meet with the community college and other property owners during Dodge City Days and they did a loose presentation on what a development might look like with the administration and the administration went back and met with their board about the interest in selling the property.

    "And they came back that they would consider it.

    "But they wanted to see more information."

    Tieben said that DCCC president Harold Nolte had experience with similar developments at previous locations near colleges.

    "It gave the students places to work," Tieben said. "It gave them opportunity for internships.

    "I never realized that during all this at how many college kids don't have cars so how better to get them to retail.

    "Right now there is literally a path mowed in the grass from DCCC to Hobby Lobby and Walmart."

    Tieben then said that the developers needed to come back with a stronger presentation and drop the 50,000-square feet down to 30,000-square feet and explain to the board what that would look like.

    "We told them from the start they would need to protect the entry way," Tieben said. "We talked to them about developing parking for the dome making it a mutual benefit of the college and maintaining the beauty of the campus.

    "So we don't want college kids looking at the back of retail development and make sure it wasn't landlocked and developing a second entrance to the college."

    Another possibility of having the second entrance would open up an intersection where the high school could have direct access to the college as well.

    "The developers offered to allow their land planner to come out with the college about if a building were to be relocated where would be the best place to put it," Tiben said. "If you had more growth, where would you need to put it?

    "If you needed more dorms, where would you need to put it?

    "So you can see there is a thought process and planning to not land locking them.

    "We also wanted to make sure that the development as it was conceptually laid out there was enough funding through the incentives to pay for everything.

    "It couldn't be something the city was asked to come up with a bunch of money or the college needed to come up with a bunch of money, we wanted to make sure it covered them so there was no risk for them to have additional expenses and that tax payer money and investments were protected or at least replaced.

    "We wanted to make sure all those amenities were covered for the college.

    "Then there is the same from the developers as well."

    Tieben and Knight then presented an arial layout of what was presented to the trustees at the time of discussions.

    The map, which will also be presented at the work session today, showed the trustees what the outlook would look like from the developers with retail put in place.

    "At the time when the trustees were presented, they were very supportive," Knight said. "But you really can't get out in front of the public too early because it could hurt the development and frankly there isn't anything but a concept at this point."

    Tieben added that before moving forward, the city will see what letters of intent the developer has.

    "We control the incentives," she said.

    "Once they get some of those letters," Knight said. "The developer will work with the land owners and the city to acquire the options on the property."

    From there the city will then negotiate the land purchases and land agreements.

    "It is just the start of the process," Tieben said.

    The work session presentation will be at DCCC today at 5:30 p.m. in the student union building.
  6. Coffeedeux

    Coffeedeux Well-Known Member

    I'm sure the same people that complain about a lack of retail development will be there to protest retail development :confused:
    Gypsy and DCFan like this.
  7. empires228

    empires228 Well-Known Member

    I'll just throw this out here. GCCC wishes that they had access to the land that DCCC does. They've been acquiring apartment complexes, a trailer park, and office buildings to the south of campus so they can tear them down or repurpose them to expand campus, and now they're lobbying the city to make crossing Campus Drive easier for pedestrians because expanding towards the football field is the only option they have. The GCCC president may not be well liked, but at least he makes his motives clear.
  8. Daredevil

    Daredevil Well-Known Member

    That was as disorganized a presentation as I could have imagined. It seems like the board members and Joann Knight and Cherise Tieben were having an inside conversation as they were presenting information they had already discussed without full disclosures. As a professional presentation it was unviewable and unprofessional it could it be seen by most of the room, the presentation was so poor it was like an inside joke on the community that came. Do TiebenTieben and Knight get paid to do this? Do they understand a screen with a fulliy debt eloped visual is what would be requires to sell any concept? If they do not that is why Dodge fails to ever win over retail developers coming in.

    Honestly the way they sound our city makes up development as we go along instead of establishing a plan. An ad hoc reaction to what somebody might want with no firm concept of what's is actually needed. Garden city started in the 1980s and 1990s building east of the town and the outdoor area where Sears and JC Penny's are was an early outgrowth. Of when Walmart started. The buildings and access where thought out before they started. It was even better thought out with Home Depot and then Menards. The access road is safe and easily navigable. The plans they have here would not even have a reasonable access road with required easements. The cost of rebuilding buildings like the childcare center with specificlaws governing what is required is more than they have considered, but they will deal with that when it arises. Moving the fields with the lights may or may not be done but that million dollar cost will be addressed when they come to it. The 5 million for 40 acres of land will not be as fair as the 4 million the church next to the center wants for its land and facility, but the college should probably work together with the community to take one for the team. Star bonds will be used to fund this and like the Lewis ford dealership (an already present entity in that case) this will not draw people into the community to spend money if we are talking a restraint or grocery store. It is made up S they go along.

    An easier solution would be to build the Comanche access road out to the casino so people could get there in the same time people from Garden go out to there wal mart, but no one likes the casino even though it was voted with a designated plan so it will be ignored. Another idea is for the city to quit cobbling together places where they may want the retail to go and develope an area like Garden City did with agreements to build streets and guttering. An actual plan instead of a vague idea of where we may want retail and businesses to go in what is currently would make sense, but it would require for thought and we do not do that in Dodge.
  9. empires228

    empires228 Well-Known Member

    If they wanted to create a single retail focus area then using the casino and extending comanche would have been the way to go. The argument that it's too expensive to build near the casino is invalid if you consider that the developer would be heavily subsidised by the StarBonds. Lewis also used a StarBond to move their dealership in GC.
    Daredevil likes this.
  10. DCSniper

    DCSniper Well-Known Member

    Our main problem is that the City has completely missed their time to be proactive in the growth and development of Dodge. They are now freaking out because Garden is becoming the "hub" of SW Kansas. The City of Dodge City is now in the reactive phase trying to do whatever they can think of to try to spur growth but they are acting without a concrete vision as to where we need to and should go as a community. I foresee no changes in the future as long as we have tweedle dee (Tieben) and tweedle dum (Knight) running the show. Hell we even let a slick talking Texan who is all hat and no cattle into our community college to lead us down another path of illogical planning. We will as a community ever learn???
    Daredevil likes this.
  11. empires228

    empires228 Well-Known Member

    And when cities act like that the only people who win are the corporate entities who only stick around until the incentives are up and make off with a profit while leaving the community with vacant buildings and raised taxes. The high taxes and blight of northern Johnson County is the perfect example of what happens when you let developers walk all over you for decades. Schulman Crossing in GC was a years long project where the size and scope of it was changed many times. You can see the early plans where tenants like Dress Barn and Furniture Row outlet would later pull out and how the design plans changed to reflect tenants showing interest and pulling out. Dick's, TJ Maxx, and Petco have asked for incentives in Hays and Hays is torn because the developer is the same man who pulled the wool over their eyes when he developed Home Depot and they were also lied to by the mall when the mall asked for incentives so they're torn on what to do because a decent sized shopping center was just completed across from Walmart and doesn't have any signed on tenants outside of a single restaurant as it is.
    Last edited: Nov 22, 2016
  12. Sunnyday

    Sunnyday Active Member

    ............and just heard that one of the reasons for purchasing the DCCC land is that the college is dying anyway!!! Wow, will it certainly will be if the Texan is allowed to stay very long.......
    Daredevil likes this.
  13. empires228

    empires228 Well-Known Member

    Who said that? DCCC and GCCC are at record enrollment numbers.
    Sunnyday likes this.
  14. Sunnyday

    Sunnyday Active Member

    That is right, but someone must be spreading that in the community to support their cause for selling off the land!!
    Daredevil likes this.
  15. empires228

    empires228 Well-Known Member


    I love the threats of "We will never have anything if we don't buy the college land!" and then they mention that the college can prevent certain kinds of businesses coming to the location and they will need extra security to make sure crazies aren't wondering from the retail onto campus... The dilapidated state of Comanche Plaza is also mentioned. Comanche Plaza could easily be reconfigured into a Sutherlands if you moved all of the existing tenants to the north end and demolished Hastings-ALCO 0r, build something behind Comanche Plaza. Menard's doesn't have a great visible location in Salina or Topeka and the location I just suggested is better than that. I did like that they mentioned the derelict state of Comanche Plaza and am surprised that they didn't throw Village Square in there too. The Mall in Hays is getting a half-assed remodel where we received these horrible uneven tile floors and Village Square could benefit from almost any renovation at this point. I don't like what B&B did to the theatre Marquee inside the mall as it sucked some of the life out of the center court, but I like that they fixed the fountain. The rest of the mall is stuck in around four different decades ranging from the 60's to the 90's.
    Last edited: Nov 25, 2016
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  16. Daredevil

    Daredevil Well-Known Member

    One of my favorite comments from tieben or knight was trying to reverse the fact that we could have delaminates businesses going bankrupt and have a mess to clean up. The idea that came back was an attempt to say what happens to the businesses if that happens to the college. Good to know how little confidence that there is in the college by the city. Especially when it's performance has been so much better than the city,s until the city got involved with it. The FHSU reaction and continued reaction is that the business community has failed, and it's reaction is let.s push in the one asset in a poorly thought out gamble. That is especially ironic since the hierarchy in the city does not support the casino development due to gambling. I have a better shot at winning on a slot machine than they do with these poorly thought out plans.
    Another aspect of this is thelack of any kind of plan for a frontage road. Any road too close to the highway can not have a 14th street entryway since the north traffic could not get in that close to the intersection. Further down would force an entry close to the dome. It would have to circle around taking up real estate or cut down the middle of the described acreage. There is not room for any reasonably sized business as it is, just another strip mall. I am also going to look up a statute someone mentioned at the meeting to see if it is accurate. If so there is a sizable kink in the developers plan or it is a total lie.
    empires228 likes this.
  17. Daredevil

    Daredevil Well-Known Member

    41-710. Location of retail store, microbrewery, microdistillery or farm winery; restrictions; within core commercial district. (a) No retailer's license shall be issued for premises unless such premises comply with all applicable zoning regulations.

    (b) No microbrewery license, microdistillery license or farm winery license shall be issued for premises which are zoned for any purpose except agricultural, commercial or business purposes.

    (c) No retailer's, microbrewery, microdistillery or farm winery license shall be issued for premises which:

    (1) Are located within 200 feet of any public or parochial school or college or church, except that if any such school, college or church is established within 200 feet of any licensed premises after the premises have been licensed, the premises shall be an eligible location for retail licensing; or

    (2) do not conform to all applicable building regulations.

    (d) Any city, by ordinance, may allow a retailer, microbrewery, microdistillery or farm winery to be located within a core commercial district as defined by K.S.A. 2016 Supp. 12-17,122, and amendments thereto, which does not meet the distance requirements established by subsection (c)(1).

    History: L. 1949, ch. 242, § 73; L. 1983, ch. 161, § 16; L. 1985, ch. 170, § 29; L. 1987, ch. 182, § 50; L. 2005, ch. 201, § 7; L. 2012, ch. 144, § 24; L. 2015, ch. 82, § 27; July 1.

    What I see is that no retailer can be within 200 feet of the college unless they were there before the college in 41-710c 1.
    The city can make a whole ordinance it looks like to allow it, in section d.
    In other words, rewrite the zoning or allowing something to go where it should not. The fact the statute has not been mentioned though shows that tieben and knight are trying to keep the fact the area will have to have a special ordinance to allow it, or do not know. Both are equally damning.

    That helps a city manager and economic developer who have no plans and do not do homework.. I am sure the intent of d was to address landlocked areas or areas that needed a retailer that could not have that business without the exceptions, not just they say they will like it better here. This requires a rewrite of the ordinance by the city not because it is necessary or in the best interest of the college, the city, or the students, but as crap game for or economic development that would rather play lottery odds to try to catch Garden City. Ad hoc plans will not do it, well formulated plans with adequate area for growth and fore thought of area development and potential will. Develop the proper area and they will come. Fail to do so and build in an area that does not have adequate room without destroying huge chunks of the college that will be difficult to rebuild and you fail.
    empires228 likes this.
  18. empires228

    empires228 Well-Known Member

    For the access road they will probably just install another light or add turn lanes onto the bypass like what they did in GC. Dodge should have fixed the bypass years ago when the land existed to have it be a four lane road... Hopefully GC will upgrade more of their bypass in the future because semi traffic though there is going to get so much worse with the milk plant nearing completion and the logistics park having broken ground with the old ConAgra plant getting prepped for demolition. KDOT has preliminary plans of what to do with the area from the intersection of the bypass and Taylor to the Southwind Country club if needed, but there's no money so...

    Dillons Marketplace is a name that keeps getting thrown around, but there's no land for that without taking out half the college. The only legitimate Marketplace store we have in Kansas is the one in Hutchinson and it is just as large as any Walmart and is just as busy. There's no room for the store and the parking lot right there and with the way Kroger has treated Kansas and the Dillons divison I just don't see them investing a lot of money out here. The renovations of the Dodge and east GC store were not nearly as nice as the ones other stores received, and they pulled out of renovating the west stores in GC and Hays after minimal paint and replacing departmental signs. Both stores are still really rough around the edges with things like nasty water stained ceilings and such.

    Now onto Sutherlands... There is definitely room for them on that land if they open a small format store like Great Bend. For awhile Sutherlands had control of most of the old Woolco buildings in the state after Walmart abandoned them for either a new "Walmart" store or a new Supercenter and those stores (Emporia and the closed Salina one) were understandably large as the Woolco stores were often larger than the non Supercenter Walmart stores of the time. The last store they opened in the state is in Great Bend in the old Kmart store, and while it is a very nice store and I think they will fill a hole in Dodge, the store isn't very large and isn't as popular as they hoped. You can still find a sizable number of Barton County cars at the Hays Home Depot and the Salina home improvement big boxes. Sutherlands is a nice store and like I said they will find their market in Dodge, even if it comes at the expense of that awful Mead Lumber store, but I hope people aren't expecting it to have the expansive selection or regional draw of a Home Depot, Lowe's, or Menard's. The other stores in the state are never busy and they either exist in places like Emporia and Great Bend where they don't have competition or in areas of Wichita/KC/Topeka that have went through an economic decline where there is no competition and rent is low.
    Last edited: Nov 26, 2016
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  19. Daredevil

    Daredevil Well-Known Member

    So in other words they are selling the land for a song, and what the city gets is a lumbar store much like Meade's with no upgrade, and a crappy strip mall. No real retail...Unless they try to move some car dealership into the area. That would be no new retail but we have used this philosophy before for giving out Star bonds.
  20. empires228

    empires228 Well-Known Member

    It will be larger than Mead by a substantial amount, but it's no Home Depot/Lowe's. GC just used a StarBond to help Lewis move their dealership in GC... The Lewis family had bought land on Campus to move it with their own money, but they were able to convince the city that they needed incentives to move...

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