New Alcohol Plant

[Big Daddy]

Ethanol, does it really make sense to use more fossil fuels and allot of water to produce a more expensive less efficient alternative?

[Highwayman]

No, but when did that stop the politically correct, tree hugging crowd.

[Big Daddy]

I don't think this is a tree hugger issue its more like who's pocket is getting the most padding. Besides don't these people realize that ethanol plants are being built close to railroad tracks......... if you don't understand the railroads allows these plants to ship in cheaper commodities than local comodities......... duh!
I think all parties involved need to take a look at the whole picture not just their wallets.....

[Highwayman]

Environmentalists have a strong lobby and support anything that doesn’t involve punching holes in the ground no matter what it does to our wallets. There are savvy folks that know this and know how to make money with it.

Now I’m thinking about the part about all that fuel next to the railroad tracks. Did they ever fix whatever it was that caused trains to start fires along the tracks?

[Bubba]

Originally Posted by Highwayman

Environmentalists have a strong lobby and support anything that doesn’t involve punching holes in the ground no matter what it does to our wallets. There are savvy folks that know this and know how to make money with it.

Now I’m thinking about the part about all that fuel next to the railroad tracks. Did they ever fix whatever it was that caused trains to start fires along the tracks?

That is like the tree huggers complaining about building power plants because then there won't be a need for wind farms to generate electricity. They just don't see the big picture, are they ready to sit at home in the dark without their precious TV or PC, no electric light, no refridgerator, no electric hair dryer. None of these things work when the wind doesn't blow and you are relying on a wind farm to produce your electricity. Or, the wind blows too hard and the windmills shut down.

Have you noticed the last few evenings have been pretty much dead calm? You have been getting no electricity from the wind farm the last few evenings, but your fossil fuel power plants have been running at max capacity so you can play on your 'puter and watch tv and have your christmas lights on.

OK....I'm done with my

[Made in the USA]

The "tree huggers" are not complaining about the power plants making problems for the wind farms, but are complaining about the plant emissions. In addition, almost all of the electricity that they are going to produce, will not even stay in the area. Much like the wind farms, as all of that electricity is sent to other places. As far as what Big Daddy says, I tend to agree with him. It takes alot of fossil fuel and water to produce ethanol. In addition, it will use alot of grain, which in turn will raise the costs to the feedyards. As I said before, "Money talks"! And I am not so sure it will benefit the local businesses like they "predict".

[Bubba]

I did read an article about more power plants would take away from windfarm production.

As far as emissions, all plants meet or exceed the standards put out by the EPA. If they want to complain about emissions, trying to get the state to stop the production is the wrong way to go about it. They need to complain to the EPA to make stricter clean air emission standards.

[Made in the USA]

Originally Posted by Bubba

I did read an article about more power plants would take away from windfarm production.

As far as emissions, all plants meet or exceed the standards put out by the EPA. If they want to complain about emissions, trying to get the state to stop the production is the wrong way to go about it. They need to complain to the EPA to make stricter clean air emission standards.

Did you forget that we have Bush in the Oval Office? He likes emissions!!
Bubba have you ever been back East where the emissions from the coal fired plants causes "Acid Rain"? Wind farms use no fossil fuel to produce electricity, and the wind is a cheap form of energy! However, after awhile, they tend to obliterate the "view". There are getting to be alot of wind farms around the US. As far as EPA standards or governmental regulations, when they put in the packers, they said they wouldn't stink either. The "air scrubbers" were supposed to stop the odor. Well, I can smell them miles away!

[lurker]

For a gallon for gallon replacement, and ignoring the 23% decrease in net energy from alcohol fuel, the US would need to plant 350,000,000 acres of corn every year... just for fuel.... no whole corn for human or animal feed.

Kansas has slightly over 50,000,000 acres. We'd need a corn field the size of Kansas.... X 7

Published on 2 Oct 2006 by ASPO-USA / Energy Bulletin. Archived on 2 Oct 2006.

Ethanol from Brazil and the USA
by Milton Maciel


Since the beginning of the present boom of corn ethanol production in the United States, Brazilian success with its ethanol from sugar cane has been cited as an example of how the USA could get free from its oil imports (mainly from Middle East) by substituting ethanol for gasoline. This would be corn ethanol.

Well, I’m an organic sugar cane farmer and ethanol expert in Brazil. And I think it is my duty to tell my American readers and friends that this comparison is not so simple or straightforward. This would be, indeed, comparing mangoes and apples.

There are two points to consider: First, the immense difference between the two economies and their respective rates of consumption. And, second, the yield and ERoEI differences (net energy, or Energy Returned on Energy Invested) between tropical sugar cane and temperate corn.

Click link for more....

[Army_of_One]

Originally Posted by Made in the USA

Did you forget that we have Bush in the Oval Office? He likes emissions!!
Wind farms use no fossil fuel to produce electricity, and the wind is a cheap form of energy! However, after awhile, they tend to obliterate the "view". There are getting to be alot of wind farms around the US.

1st, I doubt if Bush LIKES emissions...but there is a balance between how much emissions we will tolerate and cost.

2nd. Wind farms are NOT a cheaper form of energy. The increased percentage cost to implement wind energy - watt for watt - in comparison to coal energy - is 3.64.

That means if it costs one million dollars to build a coal facility that will produce a set amount of energy - it will cost 3.4 million dollars to produce the same amount of wattage in a wind farm - but that EXCLUDES the price of the land.

Wind is government subsidized at this point. If they become play on the same level as coal and lose the subsidies your bill will go up. You also can't count on wind farms...when the wind isn't blowing they are not producing. Coal is steadily producing electricity.

The wind farms are just a thing to make the eco-people happy. KCP&L is building a new power plant in Eastern KS and I would guess that they popped up a wind farm or two to offset the amount of electricity they are making...what I mean is X% of their electricity has to be "clean" electricity (wind farms) so for every say...10 megawats they produce 1 of them has to come from clean electricity. So as they put more plants online they have to build more wind farms.