Clinton, Obama vote 'no' on Iraq bill

[lurker]

Bubba still don't get it. Bubba prolly never will get it. Oh well, at least he can drive all by himself.

Originally Posted by wordsmythe

9-11 had nothing to do with Iraq.

We invaded Afghanistan for that and rightly so. We let Osama get away.

This "fight them over there so we don't have to fight them here" is getting a little tired too.

By invading Iraq we did exactly what Osama wanted. He told his followers and his soon to be followers that America would attack muslims all over the world and kill them and their children.

Then we did it.

Now those fringe people start to get frightened and they turn to Osama and the extremesits because they believe they are fighting for their lives.

Now he has more recruits to throw at us.

If anyone thinks for one second that the terrorists are too busy in Iraq and Afghanistan to plot attacks here then they need a new thought.

Hitting us at home is what they want and the'll keep trying no matter what.

Wordy don't get it either but he does have a sense of their goal.

[Outofdodge]

Originally Posted by Army_of_One

Do you people expect to have a war with no casualties? How many people died on Omaha Beach? How many died at Iwo Jima?

I spend 10 of the last 12 days enjoying trout streams, nature's beauty, single malt and no computers only to come back and see some things never change.

You have the wrong comparison there Junior, the better comparison would be Vietnam but even that is misleading as at least there was a definite 'side' to take. But the anaologies get better every day. Soldiers sent into another country halfway around the world under dubious circumstances ineptly micromanaged by the DOD and testicularly challenged military "leadership" to support a US "democratically installed" government that shows no capability nor urgency care for themselves and their people. While American men and women do the dirty work, the paint on the portrait the administration painted begins to run and truer picture becomes apparent to the objective observer. The only recourse the administration has is for it and those doing their bidding to question one's patriotism or invoke the troops. Whom by their actions (see Stop Loss, Walter Reed and disability applications) they could really care less about.

We aren't at war in Iraq, we're in the middle of a civil war of our own making thanks to "leadership." The service people and our grand children are paying the price. Our soldiers are doing what the Iraqi police should be doing but like Vietnam, the good ones get executed and the rest are either inept or corrupted. There may be a war against terror, but Iraq ain't it.

Originally Posted by Army_of_One

There are three groups that want us out of Iraq,<snip> and the Democrats....all three hate America.....?

That's insulting and a lie. You can do better than that.

[SGT T.]

You ask for my input on equiment over here, so here it is. Keep in mind that if this sounds watered down, it is because the enemy has google too. Over a beer one of these days, I would love to get as far into specifics as possible. But at the moment, there is just too much at risk. Do you remember the HMMWV? It has evolved. The version I ride in here has improved so dramaticly over the earlier versions that it is just barely even the same truck. Oh, and let me tell you about my body armor. It's still heavy, and still uncomfortable, but I SAW with my own two eyes a guy take 3 rounds from an AK -47 at poop your pants close range. He survived. Bruised, but alive. Oh, and for those that get really tore up, we are now issued the IFAK (Improved First Aid Kit). It comes with a nasal airway, a CAT (see below), a HEMCON bandage, Curlex, and the neccessary equipment to treat a sucking chest wound. (Oh yeah, we recieve more medical training then troops at war have ever been privy to.) Remember back in the good ole days when we were taught to treat casualties with a pressure dressing? Those days are gone. Now we have the Combat Application Tourniquet, or CAT. Its used to stop bleeding, can be self applied, and there have been cases where it was removed 12 HOURS after application and the casuality kept the effected limb. There are still little things killing my brothers and sisters out here, but most of the little IED's are not really doing the job anymore. It takes bigger more complex ones now, and the enemy knows that. Thats why we are no longer the big targets we once were. The real enemy we fight here on a daily basis are, IMHO, the Iranians. I really can't get into details. But trust me, they are behind ALOT of the crappy stuff that happens here. BTW, did you know that we have almost nothing based in the Kingdom of Arabia anymore? In fact, there might be a weather detachment still around there, but thats about it.

[Army_of_One]

So what you are saying is that you have some pretty good equipment to do your job with? God bless you and keep your head down and your spirits up! The media would have JW and others believing that the soldiers are running around Iraq with raggedy, outdated equipment... That may be true of some NG units though...

[SGT T.]

AOO,
In my short time here, I have become something of a FOB hopper. Victory, Stryker, Liberty, BIAP, Falcon, Rustamiyah, Loyalty, and now Apache. They have all been my homes for at least a night or two. I can tell you that in all my travels, I have not seen one NG unit roll outside the wire. Now thats not to say they don't, but here in Baghdad, I haven't seen it. Most of the NG guys deployed here are REMF's, Finance, hospital guys, water pureificaton dudes and legal types. I have nothing against NG types, in fact I was KSARNG (Kasnas Army National Guard) myself for two years before I went active. It's easy to say that the guard has crappy equipment, but the equipment the NG gets is based on funding, which is based on the number of troops any one state has. So, if you are a 5 foot 3 inch, 250 pound E-4 in the national guard, who has never passed a physical fitness evaluation, are you going to get kicked out? Probably not, because every guy the Guard loses is another top of the line piece of equipment your state is not going to get. This is why you see so many out of shape guys in the NG. So, if your state NG guys are going to war with crappy equipment, then the blame lies in two places, your NG recruiters, and your STATE leadership. NG guys swear alliegence to the Gov of the state, not the President. BTW, the Pennsylvania NG has Strykers. The Alabama NG has PAC 3 Patroit missliles. And the Kansas National Guard was one of the first units in the entire Army to get the M109A6 Paladin field artillery piece.

[Army_of_One]

Originally Posted by SGT T.

AOO,
In my short time here, I have become something of a FOB hopper. Victory, Stryker, Liberty, BIAP, Falcon, Rustamiyah, Loyalty, and now Apache. They have all been my homes for at least a night or two. I can tell you that in all my travels, I have not seen one NG unit roll outside the wire. Now thats not to say they don't, but here in Baghdad, I haven't seen it. Most of the NG guys deployed here are REMF's, Finance, hospital guys, water pureificaton dudes and legal types. I have nothing against NG types, in fact I was KSARNG (Kasnas Army National Guard) myself for two years before I went active. It's easy to say that the guard has crappy equipment, but the equipment the NG gets is based on funding, which is based on the number of troops any one state has. So, if you are a 5 foot 3 inch, 250 pound E-4 in the national guard, who has never passed a physical fitness evaluation, are you going to get kicked out? Probably not, because every guy the Guard loses is another top of the line piece of equipment your state is not going to get. This is why you see so many out of shape guys in the NG. So, if your state NG guys are going to war with crappy equipment, then the blame lies in two places, your NG recruiters, and your STATE leadership. NG guys swear alliegence to the Gov of the state, not the President. BTW, the Pennsylvania NG has Strykers. The Alabama NG has PAC 3 Patroit missliles. And the Kansas National Guard was one of the first units in the entire Army to get the M109A6 Paladin field artillery piece.

I know what you mean. I started the same way you did....NG...suffered great disatisfaction in the organization and went active duty. Anyone that we can't work we send to the NG they will, as you stated, virtually take anyone because they get paid by the head. So when they roll out of the wire with that 40 year old E-4 with his 7th grade education and 4 felonies...they have to remember...that's the guy watching your back...lol. Some states guard units have good equipment. When they get tagged for deployment they probably get federal funds to help?!?

[BroncoFan]

Originally Posted by Army_of_One

I know what you mean. I started the same way you did....NG...suffered great disatisfaction in the organization and went active duty. Anyone that we can't work we send to the NG they will, as you stated, virtually take anyone because they get paid by the head. So when they roll out of the wire with that 40 year old E-4 with his 7th grade education and 4 felonies...they have to remember...that's the guy watching your back...lol. Some states guard units have good equipment. When they get tagged for deployment they probably get federal funds to help?!?

Let's not generalize the enitire NG, here, or anywhere! Not all of them are E4's, fat and out of shape!

BTW, I really enjoy hearing some front-line info. Should be more accurate than what we read/hear from media.

[TexKan]

NG in Texas historically is better equipped than the AG - State always had more money than the feds...........

[SGT T.]

I am not saying that the entire NG is out of shape, nor 40 year old E-4's. I am saying that in MY EXPERIENCE, I have seen more out of shape national guardsmen than I have active duty troops. I, like AOO, became disapointed with the NG, and went active. One of the things that upset me and pushed me into active duty was the fact that the National Guard promotes on slots. There were only 3 slots higher than mine in my unit, and the guy one slot up was THE outta shape E-4. He had been in for 12 years and had no drive to be promoted, and the Guard had no drive to kick him out. No that is not to say there there are not some Active Duty guys who need a diet, the only difference is that if you are an out of shape active duty guy, then you are are not going to have a job for very long.

As to on the ground reports... well... feel free to ask me whatever you like. I will try to be as honest as I can, but as you know there are some things I can't talk about.

[TexKan]

I know some out of shape cops too but they can still kick any perps ass that comes along. They just kick it harder than the inshape ones.