Summer Olympics in China... WHY?!?

[88-31-10]

If we civilians aren't privy to the "intel" and are therefore not able to make "informed , intelligent decisions", what the hell makes you any different? Are you privy to it? Or are you just trusting your government to do what's best? I think the answer to the former is NO and the answer to the latter shows your gullibility.

[88-31-10]

Originally Posted by Army_of_One

Very good DUtch....and by the way we were "at war" long before 9/11. How many of our troops were attacked and killed under the Clinton administration? He was just too cowardly and too preoccupied to stand up and do anything about it.

A HELL of a lot less than have been killed under Bush. That's a fact and you can't refute it. Four thousand and counting in Iraq ALONE.

Mission accomplished my ass!!!

[88-31-10]

Originally Posted by Highwayman

I continue to see a lot of looking backward and pointing blame and not much looking forward as to why it’s in our long term interest to not let Iraq fall apart.

I am anxiously awaiting for you to tell us.

Summer Olympics in China... WHY?!?

Summer Olympics in China... WHY?!?

[Flying Dutchman]

So, tell me 88, is it Bush or is it war that you are against? Is it the mistrust of the government or mistrust of THIS government? Are you going to call Bill Self and tell him he needs to let Roy know every single aspect of his game plan? He needs to let every fan know exactly what, when, where, why and how he intends to play the game? If KU falls behind by 12 points, is he supposed to tell Roy ahead of time that he will throw in the towel?

4000 dead in armed conflict over the last 5 years. Every life is valuable and every death an attrocity. Over 3000 killed in one day by 4 airplanes. No fighting, no defending themselves, no mercy shown to them by the enemy that swore to kill them.

Somebody posted there is no winning this war. Maybe not, but there is a way to lose it. Our government lies, our media lies, none of us know the truth because it is formed on our opinions. I am not niave enough to think that our government is not hypocritical. The difference is that to me the enemy is just that, the enemy. I could care less about the Crusades, the Romans, the Greeks, the Persians or any other form of conflict that the middle east ahs had to face over the last few thousand years. I care about today and tomarrow. If AQ, or whatever group of fugnuts want to keep sending warm bodies into the conflict, then I am more than happy for our troops to keep Allah supplied with twisted souls. Yes, there needs to be a better plan and there needs to be some sort of exit strategy, but I do not need to know what it is because I truly believe that our country is the better one and our ideals and morals are the better ones.

[Made in the USA]

Originally Posted by Bubba

You're right, let's just drop several nuclear bombs on the area. Or, as Bush would say....nucular bombs.

Yeah, but that would mean we are in a "real war", wouldn't it?? We can't kill any civilians, but how do you know who is the enemy and who is the civilians??

Originally Posted by Bandit

The difference is that to me the enemy is just that, the enemy.

It would be nice if we could start treating them as such, wouldn't it??

[88-31-10]

Originally Posted by Flying Dutchman

So, tell me 88, is it Bush or is it war that you are against? Is it the mistrust of the government or mistrust of THIS government? Are you going to call Bill Self and tell him he needs to let Roy know every single aspect of his game plan? He needs to let every fan know exactly what, when, where, why and how he intends to play the game? If KU falls behind by 12 points, is he supposed to tell Roy ahead of time that he will throw in the towel?

Well Dutchie let's put it this way. I am against Bush taking us into this war. Mssrs. Bush, Cheney, Rumsfeld, et al have never laid out a good reason for entering into this morass, much less explained any type of measurable goals we are trying to attain. Indeed, it appears to this casual observer that the reasons for going to war changed like the days of the week. WMD, terrorists, oppression, etc. With that said, I suppose one could concur that if you don't know why you started something, you'll have a hard time knowing when you're finished. Now if this type of "leadership" appeals to you and your sensibilities, then by all means throw your support to the lying SOB. I smell a rat and I'm gonna say so.

Regarding my trust in "the government" or "THIS government", I've always maintained a certain amount of skepticism when it comes to officialdom. Having "leaders" like those listed above, only adds to my aforementioned distrust. Guess I'm kind of funny that way.

Now while your analogy to Bill Self and the upcoming game with North Carolina probably makes perfect sense to you, I frankly am having a hard time following it based on how it relates to my previous posts. I do know this, if I were to get a chance to call Bill Self, I think I'd tell him to double down on Hansbrough when he catches the ball down low and hope we can draw some fouls when he starts flailing those arms like he does. After two quick fouls, he'll likely start kicking it out to the guards for the shot and I think we can then hold their shooting percentage below 40%. That happens and we'll advance while Roy heads home.

Originally Posted by Flying Dutchman

4000 dead in armed conflict over the last 5 years. Every life is valuable and every death an attrocity. Over 3000 killed in one day by 4 airplanes. No fighting, no defending themselves, no mercy shown to them by the enemy that swore to kill them.

The number of dead is indeed a tragedy. The 3000+ were killed by airplanes flown by Saudis mostly, not Iraqis. When are we gonna invade Saudi Arabia?

Originally Posted by Flying Dutchman

Somebody posted there is no winning this war. Maybe not, but there is a way to lose it. Our government lies, our media lies, none of us know the truth because it is formed on our opinions. I am not niave enough to think that our government is not hypocritical. The difference is that to me the enemy is just that, the enemy. I could care less about the Crusades, the Romans, the Greeks, the Persians or any other form of conflict that the middle east ahs had to face over the last few thousand years. I care about today and tomarrow. If AQ, or whatever group of fugnuts want to keep sending warm bodies into the conflict, then I am more than happy for our troops to keep Allah supplied with twisted souls. Yes, there needs to be a better plan and there needs to be some sort of exit strategy, but I do not need to know what it is because I truly believe that our country is the better one and our ideals and morals are the better ones.

I am inclined to agree that there is probably no winning this war. Hell, no one has been able to explain to me just how we will know it is "won".

I also understand your apathy regarding "Crusades, Romans, Greeks, Persians or any other conflict.......", I also understand the old axiom: Those who forget the past are condemned to repeat it.

In the final analysis, I agree with your sentiments regarding the greatness of our country. We probably just disagree on what makes it great.

[Flying Dutchman]

I fully understand your stance, and I even respect it believe it or not. I thought all along that the reasons for this mess were never explained properly, and won't be until it is over. In my opinion, and it could be wrong, if the real reason was stated for this it would not have been allowed. I felt, and feel, that the major reasons we went into this was to put our military right in the middle of the middle east. It gives us troops on the border of Iran and Syria, two of the most radical countries in the region. We did not attack Iraq, we attacked Suddam and his followers knowing the people would not put up any opposition. We also knew he, Suddam, was isolated without any threat of the other countries coming to his aid. Strategically that is a good thing. Unfortunately our leaders totally underestimated how the people of Iraq would handle it on their end. Their hatred of each other and wishing for revenge amongst themselves was more important to them than unifying their country. We also underestimated and put to much trust into Pakistan and the tribal leaders in Afghanistan. We overplayed our hand and did not go into the situation with any good back up plans. We should have declared marshal law in iraq, sealed the borders and held Pakistan to the fire. To say Bush's leadership abilities appeal to me is a gross misunderstanding. I felt, and feel, that he and Rummy totally screwed this pooch from the get-go. While i agree with the decision if based upon my opinion, I do not agree with how the outcome has been. I only used the KU and NC example to show why you do not lay out ones strategy ahead of time or to your enemy. I feel Bush lied, but not to the extreme or for the same reasons as others is all.

This "war" will never be won. There is no way to stop our enemies completely when the enemy is based upon emotions and religious ideals instead of policies and power. There is no end unless we totally stop being America or they totally stop being terrorists. We attack their camps, their strongholds, their leaders......they blow up trains and buses full of civilians. We hold them in prison, feed them, give them their religious freedom and allow them to worship, and we waterboard the ones we need information from......they behead prisoners on tv, start riots and killign because of a cartoon and threaten to kill teachers because of naming a teddy bear Mohamed. There is no comparison, regardless of the why's and how's.

[Highwayman]

Originally Posted by 88-31-10

I am anxiously awaiting for you to tell us.

Summer Olympics in China... WHY?!?

Summer Olympics in China... WHY?!?

You’re missing the point here. We’ve all heard from Petraeus and Crocker, several military analysts and even one of our board members on the ground over there. Yet none of the armchair generals on this board seem to have a clue what the repercussions of an immediate withdrawal that they advocate might cause.

Even Clinton and Obama have given themselves an out for withdrawal if you really listened to what they say. They want the wiggle room to back away from their election year promises when they finally become privy to the rest of the story that even they don’t know at this point.

[88-31-10]

Originally Posted by Highwayman

You’re missing the point here. We’ve all heard from Petraeus and Crocker, several military analysts and even one of our board members on the ground over there. Yet none of the armchair generals on this board seem to have a clue what the repercussions of an immediate withdrawal that they advocate might cause.

Even Clinton and Obama have given themselves an out for withdrawal if you really listened to what they say. They want the wiggle room to back away from their election year promises when they finally become privy to the rest of the story that even they don’t know at this point.

I'll admit to my ignorance regarding the repercussions of an "immediate withdrawal". And I don't advocate such a withdrawl. My criticisms are of the events leading to the run up of the war and the poor decisisons made in response to the events. If you don't mind sharing, what do you think the repercussions will be?

Regarding Clinton, Obama, and McCain. Nothing they say during the campaign suprises me at all. I personally don't think the three of them tied together would make a good president, much less any one of them individually.

[Highwayman]

Originally Posted by 88-31-10

I'll admit to my ignorance regarding the repercussions of an "immediate withdrawal". And I don't advocate such a withdrawl. My criticisms are of the events leading to the run up of the war and the poor decisisons made in response to the events. If you don't mind sharing, what do you think the repercussions will be?.....

Keep in mind that Iraqi security forces continue graduating new personnel and more provinces are being turned over to Iraqi control as time goes on. The Iraqis even have their own fledgling air force operational. The growing ability to deal with their own security is behind the current drawdown of our forces which is supposed to total 42,000 by July. Also on the table is cutting the tours from 15 months to 12.

With that said, many experts agree that if we leave before the Iraqis are up to the task of taking care of insurgents on their own the result would be escalation of violence. The competing terrorist groups seek to collapse the government and take control of the region. I suspect that you already know this.

The question is why we should we care. One reason is the oil. We don’t buy much of our oil from the Middle East but their production affects world prices and that does affect us. They can simply withhold Iraq oil from the market and hurt us economically. More important is the oil is a resource that terrorist groups can use to finance further attacks on us. Free run of the area allows them to build training camps and recruit locals to grow their ranks. (They have some very ugly ways to encourage recruitment BTW) It makes no sense to me to give any terrorist group the opportunity to enhance itself in any way and that is what they will do given the chance. It just means our battles, wherever they are, will be longer and more bloody. There is also the propaganda victory terrorists will claim by sending our forces packing because we have no stomach for the fight. Giving the perception of weakness is not in our best interest.

Then there is the other little pet project of Islamic radicals, destroying Israel. Given the free run of the region they will get around to attacking Israel and we will end up getting dragged into that mess. In any event I don’t see any long term gain for us by abandoning Iraq. I don’t believe they will simply fight among themselves and leave us alone.